DUST Search - Shield Extender and Damage Mod scaling across tiers is inconsistent

Protocake JR wrote:

You could also add a little something about Armor plates with speed penalties.

You see, with damage mods and shield extenders, there is no reason I shouldn't be using top tier, complex, modules. But with armor plates, i'm actually discouraged to use complex modules because of the increasing speed penalty.

CCP, if you want to keep the speed penalty for armor plates (actually I kinda want you to get rid of it until you penalize shields), then you should keep the penalty small (no greater than 3 percent) and consistent (all basic, advanced, and complex armor plates have the same speed penalty). This makes it so the user is not punished for stacking complex plates rather than basic plates, the same way the user is not punished for stacking complex shield extenders rather than basic shield extenders.

I know, CCP, what you were trying to do with the whole Health/Speed trade off thing, probably in a similar way to EVE. But the way you have tried to implement this balance is a failure for an FPS. It's why shields will always be king (which is why I won't give up my SCRAM).

#keepevemechanicsoutofdustgameplay


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Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 751	Posted - 2013.10.19 05:47:00 - [1] - Quote This post shows some inconsistencies with how modules scale in effectiveness across tiers. I mainly have problems with how damage mods and shield extenders scale as they are the most inconsistent and affect the balance of the game the most. Here's how they scale across tiers. STD: 22 HP/Extender ADV: 33 HP/Extender - 50% increase from STD PRO: 66 HP/Extender - 100% increase from ADV (200% from STD!) STD: 3% DMG/Modifier ADV: 5% DMG/Modifier - 66% increase from STD PRO: 10% DMG/Modifier - 100% increase from ADV, (233% from STD!) Here we see that there is a 50-66% gap between STD and ADV, and a 100% gap between ADV and STD, leaving a gaping 200%+ (3 times effectiveness) hole between STD and PRO. This makes some sense for Shield Extenders as all tiers have equal HP other than modules, so it needs to be made up somewhere. Damage Mod tiers are atrocious. With stacking penalties, two mods of the previous tier equals, or is worse than in the case of ADV mods, a single mod of the next tier. Four STD damage mods won't touch a single PRO damage mod. Now, how do the CPU and PG costs fair? Let's look at damage mods. STD: 7.7 CPU/1 PG per 1% ADV: 9 CPU/1 PG per 1% PRO: 6.8 CPU/1 PG per 1% As we can see, ADV damage mods cost more resources per damage % than STD damage mods, which makes sense since they are more space efficient and give a bigger damage boost if you do a straight upgrade. After stacking penalties, you can run two STD mods for about the resource costs of an ADV mod and get about the same boost. This is fair. Now, we get to PRO damage mods and they... cost LESS resources per percentage than the ADV AND STD mods. Two ADV damage mods are around an 8% boost, which is NOT competitive with a PRO module and costs far more CPU and PG to run. If you are running 2 Enhanced Damage Mods, you can replace them with 1 Complex Damage Mod. In doing so, you get a bigger damage boost, an extra slot and more CPU and PG. We see this with shield extenders as well. Basic: 0.82 CPU/0.14 PG per 1s Enhanced: 1.09 CPU/0.18 PG per 1s Complex: 0.82 CPU/ 0.17 PG per 1s Same thing here. You can replace two Enhanced Shield Extenders with one Complex Shield Extender and get the same amount of shielding, an extra slot and more CPU and PG to play with. It's both more effective and more efficient to use more expensive, higher tier mods. I know what you're thinking. "The Proto modules cost more!" The truth is, no, they don't. Let's sum this up, pros and cons for condensing damage modules. Pros to Condensing 2 Enhanced Damage Mods to 1 Complex Damage Mod 8% -> 10% damage improvement due to the removal of a stacking penalty. 22 free CPU 1 free PG Price of suit drops by 1244 ISK; 5596 from 6840 (3420 * 2) Additional slot Cons to Condensing 2 Enhanced Damage Mods to 1 Complex Damage Mod -crickets- Really, it's the way that these modules scale that makes PRO suits overpowering. I understand; it costs SP to train up PRO modules. However, it also costs SP to train up ADV modules. ADV modules cost more CPU and PG for 1 point or percentage of effect than STD modules, while PRO modules cost less CPU and PG for 1 point or percentage of effect than ADV modules. Which is it, CCP? Is going up the tiers supposed to cost more ISK, PG and CPU or less? Because it goes up, and then back down. Why IS the jump from PRO from ADV over twice as large in module effect as the jump from STD to ADV? Yes, if you want to take full advantage of the PRO modules you'll need a PRO suit. However, when it is so much harder to kill you, it makes the point moot, especially since by the time you're running PRO suits you'll probably have 100m spare ISK and can run them all day, every day. Finally, Armor modules have none of these advantages. The jump from ADV to PRO is SMALLER than the jump from STD to ADV. The CPU and PG costs are LESS efficient at higher levels. The speed penalty is HIGHER per point of armor as you go up the tiers. It's actually more efficient to run 2 STD plates than 2 PRO plates, in CPU, PG, ISK, HP and Speed, although it obviously costs an extra slot. This is the exact OPPOSITE of Shield Extenders. Do you know what this means? This means that as you go up the tiers, it becomes more and more cost effective to shield tank than armor tank. This means it becomes more favorable to shield tank and less favorable to armor tank as you go up the tiers. Obviously, Shield and Damage modules take up the same slot type, while Armor takes up LSs. This means you either go full tank or mostly damage. For eHP tanks: This means lower tier players have more of their HP as armor, making the majority of the weapons in the game better against them, while the reverse is true for PRO players. Assault Rifles do 10% more damage against armor, which is the majority of a STD players' health. Assault Rifles do -10% damage against shields, which is the majority of most PRO players' health. For damage stackers: Damage mods might as well not exist for STD players. The STD player will have all of their small amount of highs filled with Basic Damage Mods that barely hit 5% damage after penalties. They can only use armor, now. PRO players can have easily triple this with the same amount of slots and have some left over for shields while ripping through the STD player's armor (since that's all they could fit efficiently) since most weapons deal more damage to armor and it doesn't heal. I'd like it if cost efficacy were normalized, shield extenders went 33/49/66 and damage mods went 4%/6%/8%. This would bring them in line with other module's (such as armor's) growth patterns. In exchange, PRO suits could be made a little cheaper and more skills could boost module efficacy for players that dedicate themselves to one or two types of module.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 752	Posted - 2013.10.19 06:03:00 - [2] - Quote I edited the post due to confusion over Assault Rifle efficacy bonus. I thought it was +10% against Armor and -10% against Shields but it seems to be the opposite. I guess I'm just tired. This somewhat changed the last two points and slightly balances the armor -> shield health shift since so many players run AR, but mostly just shifts the problem from efficacy to projectile/explosive damage. This may actually be worse, since most players carry Locus Grenades and SMGs, which will tear STD players apart 15-25% faster than PRO players due to their higher percentage of health being armor.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 752	Posted - 2013.10.19 06:15:00 - [3] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: You could also add a little something about Armor plates with speed penalties. You see, with damage mods and shield extenders, there is no reason I shouldn't be using top tier, complex, modules. But with armor plates, i'm actually discouraged to use complex modules because of the increasing speed penalty. CCP, if you want to keep the speed penalty for armor plates (actually I kinda want you to get rid of it until you penalize shields), then you should keep the penalty small (no greater than 3 percent) and consistent (all basic, advanced, and complex armor plates have the same speed penalty). This makes it so the user is not punished for stacking complex plates rather than basic plates, the same way the user is not punished for stacking complex shield extenders rather than basic shield extenders. I know, CCP, what you were trying to do with the whole Health/Speed trade off thing, probably in a similar way to EVE. But the way you have tried to implement this balance is a failure for an FPS. It's why shields will always be king (which is why I won't give up my SCRAM). #keepevemechanicsoutofdustgameplay I did mention that the speed penalty is higher for complex mods for every point of armor than for basic mods, and that 2 STD mods are cheaper, easier to fit, cost less SP to obtain, faster and have a higher health bonus. I ran out of space and these last formatting changes made the BBCode take up the last remaining characters. I actually had to crop out areas about speed penalties and other module efficiencies to fit all this in before posting. I always hit the character limit!
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 754	Posted - 2013.10.19 08:58:00 - [4] - Quote Banning Hammer wrote: Why i getting the impression that this is a Ninja attack to the Caldari suit ? Anyone else ? That was not my intent. As an energy weapon user, I have few problems with Caldari suits. Also, Caldari suits would not be much worse off, as Shield Extenders would remain at 66 HP. I just want STD and ADV to be raised to match the upgrade curve of other modules, so that it doesn't suddenly double in effectiveness with better CPU/PG/ISK efficiency at PRO tier. Also, Weapon Modules would affect everyone, so no targeting there. Although, I would like the Armor plating speed penalty to be made uniform, also, so that more players Armor tank. That wouldn't reduce the effectiveness of Caldari shield tanks as much as give more options for eHP upgrades for everyone.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 755	Posted - 2013.10.19 09:14:00 - [5] - Quote Rowdy Railgunner wrote: Beck Weathers wrote: Been Saying Enhanced shield extenders need to be +44 hp forver, and Pro damage mods should give +7% damage not 10 You are dumb. And the person that is OP is also dumb. Things are fine as is for DMG and tanks. Lowering the damage potential and raising the tank potential is not how you balance a FPS. Have we learned nothing in in15 years of FPS? Stay classy. My point was about how the modules SCALE. Specifically, that they do not scale in a balanced way. Perhaps you have no conception of what that word means. I mean that the efficacy of the modules do not rise linearly enough and that they do a small jump and then a huge jump in power. I never said anything about lowering damage potential. Perhaps lowering the Complex from 10% to 8% ruffled your feathers? Well, that was just a suggestion. This post examines both Shield Extenders, a "tanking" module, and Damage Modifiers, a "damage" module, and its conclusion was that they needed to rise to maximum potential at a more even rate across tiers. The stats for the Complex mods don't even need to change for that. Sorry, but rebalancing costs vs effectiveness is not the same as "buffing" or "nerfing" one role or the other. God. It's about making it so that STD and ADV players can be slightly more competitive, like they are in other areas, such as weapons, that grow linearly.
Borne Velvalor BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY 761	Posted - 2013.10.19 13:02:00 - [6] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: Inventions don't necessarily "scale" linearly and there is probably no need to make it so. However, it would not hurt to raise proto equipment prices since they are in fact prototypes and not necessary "manufactured in high quantities" like other equipment. There is a need, because these are not inventions and this is not real life. War is not fair. Games should be, to some extent, unless you're telling me you find running around the trenches of WWII to be fun while you're getting suppressed by an MG42. I just feel like at STD, your modules are doing almost nothing, at ADV they are kind of useful, since they are around 50% more effective than STD. Then you hit PRO and they are two times better than ADV and over three times better than STD. Due to fitting costs and penalties, there are reasons to fit lower modules of different types. With Extenders and Damage Modifiers, it's PRO all day every day with no penalties and an exponential increase in usefulness. (WARNING: Unwarranted text wall rant following.) There's no point running damage mods at STD and very little point in running shield extenders, either. 44 HP from two extenders will stop one Duvolle bullet. I mean, come on. Oh boy, all of my modules can stop a single bullet and make me live a whole twelfth (real figure) of a second longer! 3% damage from a Light Damage Mod won't even save you a single bullet 75% of the time against same tier gear, meaning you're getting an amazing 0% increase since it doesn't even break the remainder division barrier. If you run Lasers or HMGs it's more likely to break the barrier, but anything that kills in less than 30 bullets (it doesn't even take a STD AR against a fully bricked PRO 30 bullets) is only saving you 1, occasionally. Then you get to ADV and you start to save a bullet or two from a damage mod and take a bullet or two from an extender. Then, it leaps to PRO. You go from 5.5% damage from two mods, to 9% damage from two mods to 19% damage from two mods. This is like going from 10 to 16 to 34. 6 up, then 18 up? Oh, yeah, completely balanced. You go from 44 HP for two extenders to 66 HP to 132 HP. 22 up for a tier, then 66 up for a tier? Oh, no, that's completely fair and balanced and doesn't completely amplify proto stomping to 110%. Sure, it costs a lot of SP to gain PRO gear. Then there should be a tier in between, at the very least. "It costs a lot" is not a valid excuse for giving one guy a pencil for a month, a fork for another two months and then a machete at four. At least give the guy a pen knife at 3. The average player is at a major shield and damage disadvantage until they hit PRO. Many players leave because they are tired of getting stomped on for several months before they can get into proto gear with decent core skills. Plus, why not just leave for a year and accrue that passive SP to upgrade? No need to actually play the game. Then they don't come back. Why don't we do this with weapons? Right now, the DPS boost from ADV to PRO is SMALLER than the DPS boost from STD to ADV. They are both 5% of STD, but not 5% of the tier below. If weapons worked the way modules did, here's what you'd have for your Assault Rifle damage. STD: 34 ADV: 36 PRO: 40 You'd be doing GAR-21 (Officer Assault Rifle GÇô above PRO) damage at PRO level. If weapons worked the same way, PRO tier as we know it would not exist. You'd just jump straight from ADV to OFC and be able to buy them from the market. However, everyone would say that it was perfectly OK for game balance and player retention to have half the players running around with GAR-21s and Thales while the other half is stuck with GEKs and NT-511s, or worse. Really, I would've liked to see the game with four tiers. Technically, there are five. MLT, STD, ADV, PRO and OFC. However, MLT is just STD that costs more to fit to allow players to try out stuff while OFC is the tier that everyone has tons of from before they nerfed the drop rates and everyone else only has all the crap they can't use. Also, OFC only applies to weapons. There always feels like there's this additional tween tier to soften the curve that never made the cut. Extenders. STD: 22 HP ADV: 33 HP ???: 44 HP PRO: 66 HP Damage Mods. STD: 3% ADV: 5% ???: 7% PRO: 10% Armor plates don't have this problem, but they slow you down so much at higher tiers for so little benefit it's laughable to use anything above Enhanced Armor Plates. Ferroscale Plates cost way too much for a job that Shield Extenders already cover completely. Five times the ISK, four times the CPU, fourteen times the PG, ten less armor and lots of SP to get rid of the -2% movement speed of a STD plate? What the hell? Any class that would benefit from it has only one or two lows to use it and would rather use a Kinetic or Cardiac with some Shield Extenders or a normal STD Plate since they already usually have a CPU bottle neck. Reactive Plates have no combination that isn't out done by a combination of Armor Repairers and Armor Plates. Unless, of course, you use one. The HP regen at that point is miniscule. Maybe enough to heal you enough to take an additional bullet or two if you wait a full minute between battles? You know what, I think I'm just burned out. I feel like chimpanzees at CCP are balancing the game at this point. When they can't figure out that -50% fire rate and +50% damage = 25% less DPS when making weapon variants (Breach), they can't figure out how to balance anything else because of a lack of understanding of Elementary school mathematics. I'm done with this. The exponential power curve struggle will continue and Dust will bleed more and more players until it dies. Wait, my mistake, the 1500 proto players will stay. Sorry for the long rant. I suppose I get more fatigued analyzing Dust than playing it.